Hello everyone!
First, here's a quick chart of family trees for characters for The River Between and which ridge they were from:
As all of you know, since we chose to review for the midterm, we're running a little behind on the primary sources. This week, in addition to finishing The River Between, you have two primary sources to read about Japan. They are Honda Toshiaki (p. 198) and Yamagata Aritomo (p. 304).
I'm going to post the discussion questions here, but chances are that we'll spend most of the class on Africa - we'll go over the novel and the Kenyatta and Morel sources. This is especially likely since most of the lecture material on Japan will come on Friday, after this week's session, and I'd like you to have context before we go over the readings.
THINGS TO CONSIDER FOR READINGS:
1) According to Toshiaki, what does Japan stand to gain through colonization and expansion? What does the process look like? What are the obstacles to expansion? How do Toshiaki's suggestions compare to Europe's early colonial experiences?
2) Why does Yamagata think the world is becoming racialized - what evidence does he provide? What does Japan need to do in the face of the "white" threat?
ACTIVITY - due by 11:59pm on Wednesday, 10/17, if you chose to do this one
In The River Between, there are several key themes that carry throughout the novel. Pick ONE of the following questions and answer it in the comments, using SPECIFIC EXAMPLES from the book to support your answer.
1) There are virtually no European characters in the book, yet the threats and damage caused by their presence is very apparent. Who is responsible for the conflict and change in the novel? How does the presence of the Christian ministry make pre-existing tensions worse?
2) Why is circumcision so controversial? What larger conflict does it represent? Which argument do you find more convincing - should female circumcision be banned or not?
3) What is the main disagreement between the Kiama and Joshua's church? Is it just religious, or is it something different? What do "traditional" and "Christian" mean in this case?
4) Education is prominent in the book. What are the arguments for and against establishing the tribe's own schools on the ridges? Do the schools succeed? How much of the arguments are actually about education?
See y'all on Thursday.
-Kirsten
First, here's a quick chart of family trees for characters for The River Between and which ridge they were from:
As all of you know, since we chose to review for the midterm, we're running a little behind on the primary sources. This week, in addition to finishing The River Between, you have two primary sources to read about Japan. They are Honda Toshiaki (p. 198) and Yamagata Aritomo (p. 304).
I'm going to post the discussion questions here, but chances are that we'll spend most of the class on Africa - we'll go over the novel and the Kenyatta and Morel sources. This is especially likely since most of the lecture material on Japan will come on Friday, after this week's session, and I'd like you to have context before we go over the readings.
THINGS TO CONSIDER FOR READINGS:
1) According to Toshiaki, what does Japan stand to gain through colonization and expansion? What does the process look like? What are the obstacles to expansion? How do Toshiaki's suggestions compare to Europe's early colonial experiences?
2) Why does Yamagata think the world is becoming racialized - what evidence does he provide? What does Japan need to do in the face of the "white" threat?
ACTIVITY - due by 11:59pm on Wednesday, 10/17, if you chose to do this one
In The River Between, there are several key themes that carry throughout the novel. Pick ONE of the following questions and answer it in the comments, using SPECIFIC EXAMPLES from the book to support your answer.
1) There are virtually no European characters in the book, yet the threats and damage caused by their presence is very apparent. Who is responsible for the conflict and change in the novel? How does the presence of the Christian ministry make pre-existing tensions worse?
2) Why is circumcision so controversial? What larger conflict does it represent? Which argument do you find more convincing - should female circumcision be banned or not?
3) What is the main disagreement between the Kiama and Joshua's church? Is it just religious, or is it something different? What do "traditional" and "Christian" mean in this case?
4) Education is prominent in the book. What are the arguments for and against establishing the tribe's own schools on the ridges? Do the schools succeed? How much of the arguments are actually about education?
See y'all on Thursday.
-Kirsten
Circumcision was the most physically dangerous difference between Christianity and the traditions of the tribe because some people, like Muthoni, died from the process because they either didn't heal properly or their incisions got infected and they never recovered from it. However, circumcision was how members of the tribe "became a man" or woman, and in tribal culture it was believed that "you could more readily trust a man than a kihii, an uncircumcised boy" (39). Therefore, knowing of the dangers that circumcision represented and the importance the ceremony held anyway, some people, like Joshua, used Christianity to determine that it was evil and that people like Muthoni who died during the ceremony "had sold [themselves] to the devil" (53). Whereas the tribal elders blamed Joshua for Muthoni's death because “nothing but evil would come out of any association with the new faith” (58). Regardless of this tension, and from a purely medical standpoint, in modern times we consider circumcision of young boys to be beneficial to their health and circumcision of women to be an atrocious brutality because the truth of the matter is that females do not have any physical need for circumcision and all it does is cause immense pain for them.
ReplyDeleteCircumcision was so controversial because the tribes that had not converted to Christianity embraced circumcision of both the man and the woman. However, to Christian followers it was a disgusting practice and they were strongly against female circumcision. This represents the larger conflict between the traditional tribes and the tribes that had converted to Christian ways. The conflict involves monotheism vs. polytheism. Some tribes were willing to change to Christianity and some wanted to stay traditional and this represents the changing times and the conflicts that come along with dividing two ways of life. The tribes were split and up against each other. I do not believe that circumcision should be banned. It is a rite of passage into womanhood and women should be allowed to embrace that. In addition, if men are allowed to, women should be too.
ReplyDeleteWaiyaki and the believers that the tribe needs to build schools argue that education is the only way to push out the whites that are encroaching on their land. They say that they must learn the ways of the white men to be able to compete with them and push them back. They believed that wisdom and knowledge would become extremely important to them in the near future. Kabonyi and the Kiama argue that the schools are a waste of time and money. They talk about the poor harvest and people of their tribe going hungry, and they believe that the money and time going into building schools should instead go to getting food and shelter and taking care of the tribe. Kabonyi also talked about the taxes that the white men placed on the tribe and that white teachers may have to come and teach the schools. Waiyaki's arguments were generally about education, because he truly believed that knowledge and education were very important. Kabonyi's arguments weren't about how education was a bad thing, but he worried about what education would bring along with it.
ReplyDeleteShane Walter 11:30
The main disagreement between the Kiama and Joshua's church was to adopt the new westernization ideas and customs that the Europeans were trying to put amongst the people. Yes, the religious aspect of it was a big deal, and one of the main issues with the conflict, but it was not the only one. For example, on page 65, Kinuthia said "'I think such a Kiama, to preserve the purity of our tribal customs and our way of life, should be formed now.'" This shows that to the Africans this was more than just a conversion of religions, it was about staying true to the traditions their people had been raised on. This was the meaning of "traditional" in this case: to stay true to those African roots and customs the people were raised on and taught. Whereas being "Christian" meant you gave up those traditions, and conformed to the ways of the white man, or as Waiyaki's father Chege put it, "...contaminated by the ways of the white man." (p. 72)
ReplyDeleteAlthough Europeans themselves are not present in the novel, it is European ideals that are at the root of conflict in the novel. Joshua chooses to give himself over to the Lord’s work, yet he is not exactly why he believes in the things he holds so firmly to. He wonders why polygamy is a sin yet is “not prepared to question what he knows to be God-inspired assertions of the white man” (Ngugi, 99). Although he stands behind the ideals, he is not the one who causes the conflict. The fact that the tribe has many leaders who all have different views causes the most conflict. The white man’s ideas that Joshua is a messenger of seep into the tribe’s culture and cause variations in beliefs. These variations increase the tension exponentially.
ReplyDeleteCircumcision was deeply rooted in the African culture. It was a rite of passage into adulthood for the up comer as well as status advancement for the parents. Woman actually wanted to have this done because they claimed to feel transformed after the procedure. It was controversial because it had practiced for so long that it was now deeply ingrained in the people and their culture. When the missionaries waltzed in and said that it was sinful and could no longer be practice ,it showed that the missionaries believed their opinion was supposed to carry more weight than that of the indigenous population. It was sort of a dominance play which was then spun into a religious belief. I favored the native’s stance because the missionaries just came in and said it was wrong, even though it had been practiced for generations. Although I see dangers in the practice, I believe if they want go ahead with doing this procedure knowing the possible complications then they should be allowed to do so. I don’t think it’s too far off of people’s choices to have piecing or tattoos, and they should be permitted to do so at their own risk.
ReplyDeleteCircumcision is so controversial because it represented adulthood for men and women of the tribe. It is something that they believe in so they can be accepted as an adult. European missionaries found this practice to adulthood wrong so they tried to ban it and get rid of it but they don't realize that it is a cultural thing for them, which caused conflicts between the people who wants to convert and to the people of the tribe. To be involved in the church, men or women cannot be circumcised. I don't believe that people should ban it from their tribe. It is something that they believe in to become a woman, to enter adulthood. We have many different views/ways to becoming an adult.
ReplyDeleteTran Nguyen (11:30)
2) Why is circumcision so controversial? What larger conflict does it represent? Which argument do you find more convincing - should female circumcision be banned or not?
ReplyDeleteThe traditionalists consider circumcision as a sacred ritual to be a beautiful and mature woman. For example, in the novel, although Muthoni becomes a Christian because of the colonization of the Europeans, she still thinks about the women circumcision. Thus, she escapes from her house and goes to the Kameno to circumcise. From Christian perspective, circumcision for women is really dangerous and cruel. It will cause women’s physical problems. We can see from the novel that Muthoni dies after circumcision. It proves that the circumcision is harmful to women. And this is the time when the conflict between traditionalists and Christians becomes larger.
As a female, I think female circumcision should be banned. I do not think it can make women beautiful as it is cruel and barbarous. But if think in another way, women circumcision still exists in some places in today’s Africa. Women in these places consider it sacred. It needs time to be changed and we cannot force others to do what we want them to do.
4) Education is prominent in the book. What are the arguments for and against establishing the tribe's own schools on the ridges? Do the schools succeed? How much of the arguments are actually about education?
ReplyDeleteThe arguments for education come from Waiyaki and others in Kameno, thinking that their people need to be educated in the ways of the white men in order to be able to fight against them and win. There are also arguments against education from Kameno in the way that they believe they are teaching the white mens way, evil. They think they are teaching away from the traditions of the people and converting them to be more like the white men. Waiyaki is also troubled with his belief of the education, whether it is contamination. The white men also oppose these people like Waiyaki,who believe in old traditions like circumcision but have been educated in the white mens way. The school, especially Waiyakis school, Marioshoni, succeeds. Most of the arguments are about the cultures and religions, and not much about the education itself.
The main disagreement between the Kiama and Joshua's church is not religious, but rather that Joshua's church represents the European "ideological colonization" of the indiginous Africans' territory. In the context of the book, "traditional" refers to the existing Kiaman social and religious customs, while "Christian" has a more derogatory connotation, representing the European customs.
ReplyDeleteJonathon Williams 11:30
In the whole story, circumcision was the focal point of confliction between the traditional people (people lived in Kameno) and people who embrace Christianity (people lived in Makuyu). In the traditional people’s mind, they regarded circumcision as a good thing, it was an indigenous ritual. For those traditional people, circumcision was a tradition since the ancient time. All the teens should go through it in order to really become a man or woman. But in the mind of Christian, it was barbaric thing and should be banned immediately. The turning point was Joshua’s younger daughter, Muthoni, rebelled against her father and submited herself to circumcision so to attain full womanhood but unfortunately died. .
ReplyDeleteIn my point of view female circumcision should be banned. Because it brought a large negative influence on the heath of women and caused a lot women die because the unbelievable pain brought by circumcision. But for the reason that it was a tradition for long time, it should not be banned in such a short time but it needs a long time preparation. Just like the author said that: “It could not be stopped overnight. Patience, and, above all, education, were needed. If the white man’s religion made you abandon a custom and then did not give you something else of equal value, you became lost. An attempt at a resolution would only kill you as it did Muthoni.” (p142) We should not only use our emotional thoughts to think about it, but we should see it in a deeper way.
The tribe views circumcision as the passage, or initiation, into adulthood. However, the white settlers/Christian believers do not see the necessity in circumcision, specifically female circumcision. They see the procedure as an unnecessary threat to female health. This conflict drives the rising opposition between those of the tribe and Joshua’s followers. Muthoni’s reasoning in chapter six for wanting to be circumcised reiterates the idea that she is not a real woman, according to the tribe, until she is circumcised. (p.26) However, her sister Nyambura represents the Christian side that circumcision is a pagan rite that every man of God should be against. (p.25) I think that since the Christians main concern is regards to female health, the act of circumcision should be decided on by the individual. If they feel so strongly that it is what will make them an adult, despite the health risk, then they should be able to follow through. I do not see the direct dishonor toward the Christian faith via a surgery.
ReplyDeleteJames C. 11:30
ReplyDeleteCircumcision is so controversial in the novel because it represents the much larger division between the two ridges, and whether or not to convert to Christianity. Once the Christian missionaries ruled that circumcision was wrongful, the members who followed them, such as Joshua, immediately backed this belief. If circumcision was seen as a sin, then they would treat it as such, even if his own daughter went through with the procedure which led to her death. For the other tribe who refused to convert to Christianity and hold their beliefs firm, circumcision represented the entrance into adulthood. The procedure was important to them because it not only gave pride to the kid who went through with it, but also the parents who were proud. The idea of getting rid of this tradition was something the people of Kameno were not willing to do, and is why circumcision became so controversial. It was the fact that it represented the battle of whether to follow the Christian ways, or withhold the traditions of the tribe. Personally, I don't think female circumcision should have been banned during the time because of the importance it held within the tribe. It was such a large part of becoming a woman, and it would be like stripping away the most important part of a young person's life, both for the individual and the family. As quoted from page 68, "Circumcision was an important ritual to the tribe. It kept people together, bound the tribe. It was at the core of the social structure."
Vicki F 11:30
ReplyDeleteI feel like everyone discussed circumcision, but I want to as well because the idea of it really impacted me. It's such a big deal, because to Western, more specifically Christian, people it is seen as brutal mutilation. Joshua condemns it saying " O, God, why don't you descend on this wicked generation and finish their evil ways? Circumcision is coming." The reason it is looked down upon is because of the Christian people. I personally had always thought it was terrible and immoral, but after reading this book I now understand their point of view. Circumcision is a right of passage for the African people. This is shown when Muthoni spoke so passionately about wanting to be circumcised. She said "I want to be a woman. I want to be a real girl, a real woman, knowing all the ways of the hills and ridges." For them, it is the way they define their adulthood-- it is an important part of their culture. I personally think it should not be banned. It is their culture, and only they can decide whether or not it should continue. An outsider will never understand the specifics of their culture, so they cannot make decisions for them.
In the The River Between, circumcision, specifically female circumcision, is so controversial because it represents a battle between keeping the rituals and traditions of the tribe alive and abandoning these ideas for the beliefs of the “white man.” As we discussed in lecture today, circumcision was considered a very important rite of passage for girls of the tribe, not only seen as a source of pride for them, but for their parents as well. It was seen as part of the process that was the only means for them to come of age and truly enter womanhood.
ReplyDeleteBefore reading this novel, I had only learned of the concept of female circumcision as a kind of forced mutilation (which I am ashamed to admit was on Oprah a really long time ago), as was almost Nyambura’s fate in the novel. We even touched on it in my human sexuality class, but this second encounter with the topic still failed to mention its original cultural significance. This western view of the practice as lewd and immoral completely neglects to acknowledge the original cultural significance, and that this practice was actually seen as important by the girls themselves. This is demonstrated in the story when Muthoni tells Nyambura why she wants to be circumcised so badly. She says, “I want to be a real girl, a real woman, knowing the ways of the hills and the ridges…I know it is beautiful, oh so beautiful to be initiated into womanhood.”
I am torn about the practice of female circumcision in general because the ritual seems to have turned into an act of forced mutilation. As far as I can tell, it has not held the same cultural meaning over time. In the context of the novel, however, this initiation was such an important symbol of reaching adulthood to the Gikuyu people, and I do not think that circumcision should have been banned for the reasons discussed above.
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ReplyDeleteCircumcision is very controversial in The River Between. It is considered an initiation into womanhood and/or manhood. In the tribe it is considerably alright for them to mutilate the genitals of women. However in the tribes that have converted into Christianity it is considered to be wrong, as they see no point in circumcising women. For men to be circumcised in the Christian faith it is totally normal. In the tribes who however have not converted over into Christianity this is a way they believe, male or female will be considered adult if they are circumcised. “A daughter of God should never let even a thought of circumcision come to her mind.” Had her father Joshua not has been a man of God, he, no doubt, would have presented them both as candidates.” (p.23) This goes to show that Muthoni made her choice rebelling against the Christian faith as Nyambura believes this was an act of the devil. The conflict is at large between the tribes and the tribes who believe in Christianity. I believe that female circumcision should be banned. I am of the Christian faith and I do believe that it is morally wrong, and sinful to mutilate women, I just don’t see the point. I don’t think it makes you more or less of a woman if you are circumcised or not. However in this time period, those were their beliefs and if they did convert to christianity, it was believed to be wrong. But before then they didnt know any different since that was a normal thing for them.
There are no actual European characters in the novel, but it shows how colonialism changed the tribal people, and their everyday life, from the introduction of religion and education, control of land, paying the taxes, and a desire to have political representation.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I think Ngugi is really smart that he uses an African character to represent the white man. That is Joshua. He is a perfect represent of white people and Christianity. He displaced his old and traditional religion and belief, and he was the leader of the Christians in Makuyu. And I think the difference in religion and belief is a very important factor that leads to the central conflict, and caused a split between the two groups at the end. But it was not the white man who did this, it was the both side leaders’ decision.
Circumcision was viewed controversial because of the split views that Christians and the other half of the tribe had on the subject. Christians believed that female circumcision should be banned, but the traditional members viewed it as a initiation into adulthood and an important marker in one's life. The larger conflict that circumcision has on the tribe is the conflicting views that the tribe had on this issue, and it pulled the tribe further apart into distinct groups. Joshua had his views on no one of his faith should be circumcised and once his daughter made the choice to go against his will and be circumcised he shunned her and blamed her death from the procedure as the devil's doing. I personally believe that female circumcision should be banned, due to the physical effects it can have on a woman. I understand that it is a step to initating a girl into a woman, but after reading the effects it had on Muthoni and the causing of her death, I believe the tribe could have found more humane ways of initating a female into womanhood.
ReplyDelete1. There are virtually no European characters in the book, yet the threats and damage caused by their presence is very apparent. Who is responsible for the conflict and change in the novel? How does the presence of the Christian ministry make pre-existing tensions worse?
ReplyDeleteJoshua is responsible for the conflict and change. As a young man, Joshua ran away from home and lived with a white man in a newly established mission. He learned to read, write, and followed the white man's faith in Christianity. He rejected his tribe's magic, power, and rituals, even calling the people ignorant for not knowing about God. With the help of Joshua, the white men were able to survey the land, declaring that people in the Kameno regions would have to start paying taxes to a government in Nairobi. Joshua acknowledges this, having learned about the necessity of a government. Also, Joshua knows that his duty, as a Christian, is to obey the government. The presence of the ministry changes the traditional lifestyles of the African tribes: circumcision is prohibited, taxes are implemented, rituals and dances are banned, etc. all in favor of a more Christian lifestyle led by the white men and Joshua. This ministry created an even bigger division between the Christians and the people against the Mission and its faith.
Reading this book gave me an interesting new perspective and context on understanding the cultural weight and controversy that surrounds female circumcision. I have discussed it and read about it somewhat in depth but only in a modern context (as female circumcision/ genital mutilation does still occur in many cultures in the Middle East and Africa) but never thought about it as something that has been controversial throughout history. I think it is really hard to get over the mere bodily discomfort invoked by the idea to most of us in the modern Western world - why on earth would any girl or woman willingly opt, much less actively desire, to have her clitoris sliced off? It is important to remember that, at least in the examples given in the book, girls anticipate the ritual of initiation and circumcision because it is of great cultural and religious weight. Ngungi writes "Cicrumcision was an important ritual to the tribe. It kept people together, it bound the tribe. It was at the core of the social structure [...] End the custom and the spiritual basis of the tribe's cohesion and integration would be no more." Muthoni not only expresses a great deal of yearning to be initiated/circumcised, but also a bewilderment as to how other cultures designate or ascertain adulthood - "Surely there is no tribe that does not circumcise. Or how does a girl grow into a woman?" she asks. The ignorance on both sides seems frightening, because the Christians seem to insist on banning it but for all the wrong reasons. They seem unwilling to speak out about other injustices and violence towards women but reject the idea of female circumcision because it is alien to them and not prescribed in the Christian faith.
ReplyDeleteMany cultures practice some kind of body modification which may be condemned , but it seems that when those practices extend to sex or the genitals, controversy is usually rife. Perhaps the greatest irony is that Waiyaki was so convinced that the key to growth and unification of the Gikuyu people was education, but the more people have become educated about human biology and sexuality, the more the practice has been condemned by the "enlightened" population at large. However, I think this is the only correct route - banning something can't solve the problem but educating people about human biology and about women's right to sexuality and agency might help people to understand the difference between a culture's right to its own religious freedoms and the rights of women.
Circumcision was a very controversial practice back then, and is still controversial today. However, a big reason why it was so controversial is because it was very dangerous. Like a few have said above... many people died from the practice, or was disformed because it didn't heal right. But in this tribe in order to be considered a man or women... you had to be circumsise. Personally, if I had to exercise a practice to be called a man that could kill me, I would sersiously consider on whether or not to do it. This is a big reason why it was so controversial, today with modern medicine, the health risk isn't too controversial but still is controversial from a religious perspective.
ReplyDelete“A Secret Plan of Government ”
ReplyDeleteAs Toshiaki described in his “A Secret Plan of Government”, the “imperative needs” of Japan was trading and expansion in order to prevent people from hunger and cold as well as flourishing the country. He suggested that the methods of navigation in old time, which were based on the landmarks and would easily cause troubles, should be updated. He encouraged the new methods of navigation to make good use of Astronomy and Mathematics. According to Toshiaki, with the newly developed methods of sea voyage, the government could minimize the loss of rice and other food incurred by immature skills of navigation before, and could hence re-balance the price of rice and other products in Japan, making people feel equally treated and fair.
His suggestion of expansion, however, was settled on the foundation that Japan could gain enormous sources of raw materials and territories, and “make up for ‘their’ past shame” (page 200). Toshiaki, as a brilliant “political arithmetician”, stratified the steps of colonization as: dispatching and investigating, distributing charity to natives and obtain obedience, finally colonizing. In details, they had to first dispatch the ships to the island to be colonized, and then investigate the natural resources and native populations. By supplying what the natives didn’t have and helping them with what they desired, they could easily conquering the country spiritually. In return, Japan could get resources from the colonized islands. However, Toshiaki’s plan was not without its resistance, and the main obstacle was other European countries aiming at the same islands to colonize. Unlike European ways of conquering, Toshiaki’s way was more peaceful with less violence and war, but through a more spiritual way of conquering.
“The River Between”
From the part that I read so far, I believe that the circumcision is controversial because it was not only a religious invasion, but, more significantly, spiritually ransacking the harmony of the valley by diverging their beliefs and faith. This is more like a non-violent method of a invisible war. In the chapter six, Muthoni told her older sister Nyambura that she wanted to be circumcised, but she was so afraid that their father Joshua, who was a convert to Christian and thought of circumcision as ‘devil’s work’ (page 25), would know this. From Muthoni’s worry we can see that the conflict between the religions had penetrate into the relationship in the family, between the father and daughter. Even as family, the daughter was not daring to expose her belief to her father, let along the compatibility of entire valley and the Christian missionaries.